Hi everyone - I'm writing this on behalf of a friend who wishes to remain anonymous, but who is in need of some advice. Please post your opinions! Anyway, here is the story:
My friend volunteers at a non-profit organization. She has been volunteering at this particular organization for roughly four years now and LOVES it. The organization conducts the sort of work that she would like to do for a living one day, and not only does she enjoy the work, but she learns a lot that may be of use to her in the future. Anyhow, the facility where she volunteers has two live-in managers (whom she described as "an old couple"). The last time my friend was volunteering, the male-manager approached her and told her that he has fantasies about her! Needless to say, my young and happily married friend was quite freaked out by discovering that she was the object of desire for a married old coot. This is the only time in the four years that she's been going there that he has said anything of the sort, but still... Now here's the thing: she is not a paid employee. In fact, as far as she knows, she's not on any official paperwork as being associated with this place. She simply shows up and volunteers her time and effort. If she were an employee, there would be legal steps which she could follow regarding this problem, but as a volunteer, what should she do? As she put it, "I could probably tell his wife, but I get the feeling she'd just get pissed off in general, and then be suspicious of me. And I don't want to stop going there, because the work is fun, and I enjoy myself most of the time, and I'm learning a lot... So, since you have the more diverse blog-roll, perhaps you could share the story and get a response??? Anonymously please, since I haven't mentioned it to [my husband] either, cuz he'd just want me to stop going."
18 comments:
So the old guy has fantasies. So what? All old guys have fantasies about young women. Even if this were an official workplace, it would only be considered sexual harassment if she made clear that the comments were unwelcome, and they still continued.
My first instinct would be to say, as her husband would say, "stop going." But, if she really wants to stay, and he's just said that he has fantasies about her, she just really has to take precautions; this guy might just be harmless, but she needs to be sure to be aware at all times of where he is and to never, under any circumstances, be alone with this guy. Even if she has to be rude or even just suddenly leave, she should never ever be alone with the guy; she always has to have witnesses, including (maybe especially) walking to her car when she leaves, etc. One way also to gauge what this guy's deal is, is to tell him politely but firmly that she's not interested (I would kinda expect she already said this to him). He could just be harmless, and just getting this off his chest, or whatever. But, she has to assume the worst about him (after all, he is married, which is a red flag, and the way he put it, "fantasies" and all, big red flag there), and if his reaction to her response to him is to continue to come after her, then she should consider leaving this place and getting other people involved. Also, and I might be wrong about this, but worse case scenario, if he gets really disgusting with his advances, or worse, acutally tries something physically with her, I don't think she would have to be on the books at this place to claim sexual harrassment. But, if all he has said thus far is that he lusts after her, she should hope for the best from it (he's just an old bastard who has been married too long and likes a young girl) but expect the worst (he wants to act on his desires). Mace/pepper spray might be a good idea (it's a good idea anyway). Anyways, that's my two cents.
I do agree that "old guys have fantasies about young women," and many will flirt with young women in a more or less charming and "harmless" way, but a guy who says "I have fantasies about you," from a guy's perspective, I wouldn't say that to a woman, even one my own age if we were both single. It could be harmless, but if she wants to stay at this place, and it sounds like there may not be a formal structure as far as having an HR dept., etc., she should treat it as if he is not harmless. He may just be an old fart with no sense of subtlety; or he may be an obsessive person who wishes to act on his "fantasies" or take advantage of a young girl who wants to continue working for him.
I agree with Mom, it's what old guys do, and one of his fantasies was probably that she'd tell him she fantasized about him too. He may have mistaken her friendliness for romantic interest. At this point in time I'd suggest she politely but firmly draw the line, perhaps with something as simple as "Your comment made me uncomfortable. I'm happily married and my husband is the only man I fantisize about." My guess is it will all end there, but it wouldn't hurt to maintain some distance from him and to be a litte more cautious in her dealings with him until she's comfortable the situation has been dealt with. People make mistakes. He made a big one, but there was no real harm. If there is a second incident, she should report it to whoever is in charge of the program, but for now, she shouldn't let it interfere with the work she enjoys doing.
That anonymous was my mom, by the way. :) She isn't a lawyer but she works for the Bar Association and is very wise. I completely agree with her--your friend should be very clear that she isn't interested and try to make sure she isn't alone with him.
~Brooke
Being instructed to comment as your mom's old guy, I resent the appellation and the concern of this situation. I believe that Pres. Clinton set the boundaries. :) Seriously, as much as I hate to agree with your mother, argh. She's right.
I spoke to a legal man about this case in my company. Many factors play into it, from case-to-case, from company-to-company. First, she has to check with HR if she has any rights as a volunteer, or opted to surrender it just to work in the company. Usually companies make people sign documentation to protect not only the volunteer, but themselves too. (Like, some organizations would rather have a signed document saying they aren't responsible if the volunteer gets injured or undertakes any risk, more to save their butt) If she hasn't signed any document, its likely she has surrendered her rights to take any sexual harassment case, because she is not considered an employee, part-time or full-time, nor is she on the payroll, nor is she bound by the company's employment rules. But again, things vary with each organization. She has to check with HR to see if she has any rights first, *without* mentioning the case. If she mentions the case, HR could very well turn against her to save the company's face. This has to be approached in a very friendly way, get her rights, and then think of the next action. That's why our company doesn't have volunteers, we have interns, and we make sure they sign documentation to save us from any liability. If she has no rights, this extends to sexual harassment in civil law, not corporate law, and there are different options of tackling the dude in that case.
Addenda to the state-by-state reference earlier: In California, the company is responsible for sexual harassment of clients, temps, volunteers, etc. Anyone who works close to the company. That's not the case in other states. She might want to check in on that too, depending on the state she's in.
It is one thing for an old guy to fantasize about a young woman. It is another thing to act on it. Telling her about it is acting on it. That does compromise her. Compromising people is just that. It isn't a good thing. It also compromises his wife at the same time.
If I were her I'd tell him just that.
If he continued then if I were her, I would weigh the risk. If it was a job that I needed for income, then I would go to battle. But in this case I might find somewhere else to donate my time.
Telling her is acting on it? Come on, Don. You're a wuz. All the legal answers don't recognize the "Clinton Standard".
And I thought it was interesting that (except for Frank) it was the (probably much younger) guys who seemed protective and somewhat outraged. Being female, and older, I think I would take the fantasy as a compliment. But I also DO believe in using common sense about safety. (And I'm the one who keeps a shotgun and a revolver in my house, "just in case.")
There's definitely an age-related split here. I wonder if it's because those of us who are younger have grown up in an age when there's so much PC-sexual-harassment-is-bad awareness? And in this situation, I wonder which age group is right...
I agree with your first remarks Melissa, but as the old coot phase of my life draws nearer, I'd like to hope all ages of men would see the value in treating women with respect in the workplace.
I do agree with you that we should learn and grow and hopefully are making progress in this direction.
My father was a government official a long time ago in charge of many office workers. He had to reprimand a man for just this sort of thing. He was disgusted about it. And this was a long time ago. So I'm not sure this is a generational difference. It is nothing new. I think it is more of a moral compass issue.
Clearly this young woman was compromised or we wouldn't be talking about it. The agency is compromised by this guy's actions as it stands to loose a good worker. The reputation of the agency is compromised because of this. The guy's wife is clearly compromised. If this behavior is ok then the institution of marriage is compromised. (It's ok for a married man to say this sort of thing to a married woman? is this what you endorse Frank?) Perhaps the Islamic fellows are right about our morality?
Our western society is compromised if we accept this attitude.
And lastly, the reputation of old coots is compromised. :) Not all of them are like this.
This guy's behavior sucks. And it isn't Clinton's fault. All the ills of our society can no longer be blamed on the Clintons. That is such a pathetic and tired argument.
Am I a wuss for holding these views?
Jane,
Which age group is right? You can't be serious... Perhaps you've been in Russia too long.
well, i'm certainly not asking "is sexual harassment ok?" by wondering which group is right... it's never okay. but some of the posts here seem to say "just ignore him" while others seem to think my friend needs to make a big deal out of this. i wonder simply because none of us knows all of the details of how this happened or what the nature of the working relationship was with my friend prior to and following this incident. he could very well be a foolish chap who spoke without thinking and simply owes my friend an apology. or he could deserve to be completely removed from the premises of this organization... but based on what we know of the situation, which course of action is correct? or is the solution somewhere in the middle?
Hi
I have had old coots make advances on me too. I agree with mom and the other guy...not sure that there isn't an old coot out there (that is healthy anyway) that doesn't fantasize about a younger woman.
Pepper Spray is good insurance, especially for walking to the car at night, regardless of old coot.
I think that were I in her shoes, I would not talk about my ethics or my morals, I would probably go straight for a verbal blow to the crotch ONLY IF he continued the verbal harrassment.
Even something as easy as saying "Ew. Gross." to an advance seems like it would get the point across really clear, but wouldn't be so out of line that her place there was jeopardized.
If he was persistent, and he continued saying stuff that she didn't want to hear, then I would say her time there is over. She should go...
Of course,... I misunderstood
Got a reply from my friend and thought you guys might be interested:
hey wow, lots of things to answer. first of all, thanks for the blog post. the consensus seems to be let the guy know it's not okay, and then hope for the best. at the time i sort of didn't really respond, but i left really fast, like "okay, that was embarrassing" then went and got in my car and drove away...so today i went out there all prepared to "do battle" or whatever, and he's gone for the weekend, so that was pretty anticlimactic. i plan to go with the "i see you as my boss, and that's not really something a boss should be saying" angle, since that's the closest i can come to threatening sexual harrassment in the workplace. (i looked up the law - actually, not all volunteers are covered in [my state]). as far as who his boss is... he's pretty much in charge of the facility, loosely supervised by [...] headquarters in Washington DC, but not much would happen if i complained. he's mostly been a decent (if slightly weird) guy up to this point, so i'm hoping i can get him to just drop it. i'll let you know how that turns out.
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